EnigmA Amiga Run 1998 July/EnigmA AMIGA RUN 29 (1998)(G.R. Edizioni)(IT)[!][issue 1998-07 & 08].iso/recent/iib122.lha/IIB/Threads/Character_Animation

Internet Message Format | 1998-05-31 | 14KB

Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 18:08:30 +0200
From:         Stephane Van Israel <[e-mail]>
Subject:      [IML] QUEST: state-animation question (HELP ! Urgent !)

Hi everybody,
                I'm still trying to do decent CG character animations with IFW, I've
animated the walk and attitude of an angry dinosaur in the stage editor by
using bones,
I've created a talking version of the same character with states ( a state
for each mouth shape) and used Magpie to properly (I think animate it)...
Now, that actor is totally seamless and he's talking during 226 frames
while walking and turning his head, I really don't want to animate all the
talking again in the stage editor, The ideal thing would be to be able to
import states in the stage editor so I can apply a state just on the mouth
(as in the detail Ed.), but I don't think it's possible to do it in IFW for
the moment  :(

The only solution I came with (apart from animating everything from scratch
in the stage editor), is to take a snapshot of every keyframe of the anim
while he's talking and to import and create states for every expressions in
the detail editor (It seems like more work than just to animate it).

Is my brain much to numb, is there another way to do it properly, ?
I need an idea from the IML Team.
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks in advance,

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Date:         Sun, 24 May 1998 14:00:47 +0100
From:         Darran Williams <[e-mail]>

Excuse me for asking but what is Magpie?

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Date:         Sun, 24 May 1998 10:54:49 -0700
From:         Matthew J Roddy <[e-mail]>

Cory directed me to Magpie a month or so ago, and I've been a vocal
advocate of it since.
Magpie is a program that allows you to easily create a "X-Sheet" (as I've
heard them called) which allows you to find targets for lip syncing.
(Forgive me is my terminology is off.)
You record your VO and save it in WAV form.  This is displayed across the
top of  Magpie's window while a corresponding timeline is printed below.
You "scrub" across that WAV's timeline and enter appropriate phonemes for
the sound you are on (ug... difficult for me to explain).
What's even cooler is for every phoneme you enter, Magpie creates a
partial face in a little box for you that represents that sound.  So at
the end of the sequence you have a little animation that will show you
what you lip sync will look like.
Even cooler still is you can download the shareware version for FREE!
I'll be moving to the full blown version soon, though.  My philosophy
being, if I use the program, they deserve my money.
Check it out at
http://thirdwish.simplenet.com/magpie.html
They can do a lot better job explaining it than I did.  You get screen
shots and the whole deal.
Very good program!

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Date:         Sun, 24 May 1998 21:58:46 +0200
From:         Stephane Van Israel <[e-mail]>

I couldn't agree more, in fact I was totally stuck with an anim featuring
lip-sync until I found that proggie, it is a real gem. If only it could
export the data to Imagine as it does for Hash animation Enterprise and
Lightwave, life would be perfect !

BTW it is great to animate objects moving on a rhythm too, and it is for PC
only, sorry ?

And mj, you 've got to upgrade,just the ability to print the X-sheets is
worth it.

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Date:         Tue, 26 May 1998 09:14:20 -0500
From:         Frank Gabriel <[e-mail]>

If you want a program for Amiga which is great for sound breakdown, try to
find a program called Take 2. It is a 2d animation pencil test program
which I use. With Take 2, you digitize video camera images, and place them
on the x-sheet (exposure sheet). Up to 4 levels of Soundtrack can be synced
to the animation.

To breakdown the track I load the sound file, then advance through the
frames  with the arrow keys, noting the sounds on my x-sheet.

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Date:         Tue, 26 May 1998 15:27:32 -0700
From:         Rhithyn Yr Arth <[e-mail]>

Scary indeed!  My room-mate in Calgary worked at Chromacolour (makers of
Take 2), and my cousin used the proggie on an Amiga 2000....

I was quite impressed with the performance of Take 2...quite nice and
extremely effective for my cousin who is an independant traditional
animator.  Although it may be overkill for someone looking for simple
syncing....I found it requires a fair bit of knowledge of the traditional
animation process (like knowledge of the layout of exposure sheets, and how
to do animation "on twos", etc...).

But the price of the software ($325.30 CDN) makes it a little excessive for
an individual looking for a simple program to assist in sound break-down.

If anyone is interested in it (either got the money to burn or are aspiring
traditional animators), you can get more details at Chromacolour's site:

http://www.chromacolour.com

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Date:         Tue, 26 May 1998 22:02:55 -0500
From:         Frank Gabriel <[e-mail]>

My version of Take 2 is the original one from Rombo, when the price was
still $50.00 US. If you can find a used copy of that version, you're in
business.

It might be overkill, but if you saved the images as IFF files & loaded
them onto the x-sheet, you could sync the soundtrack to the picture &
output straight to a videotape.

You don't need to know anything about animation on twos. the playback speed
can be adjusted to anything from 1 frame per sec upward, and the pictures
hold as long as you want by dragging the frame down the x-sheet (kind of
like the action editor in Imagine). Don't like the timing? Drag it back up
again. Great program.

I hear the Chromacolour people have done a version for pc calles x-sheet,
but I think that's more expensive.
Frank

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Date:         Mon, 25 May 1998 00:06:11 +0100
From:         Darran Williams <[e-mail]>

Thanks for the Info. I thought at first you had got something to
manipulate states in the staging file. I'll give the program a look
although I haven't quite got to that stage of animation yet.

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Date:         Mon, 25 May 1998 20:27:31 -0400
From:         Collins <[e-mail]>

Yep, Magpie is indespensible. I think the original quest here had to do
with adding speech in the stage editor, so this is some advice from my
experiences: While it is true, there can be a lot of states for speech,
you can really edit those down to about four or five key positions for
animating. Try just using an "a" shape, an "o" shape a "m" shape and a
"f" shape. These can pretty much cover speech, although you may want to
add a shape here or there to round it out. Just draw up the shapes for
these on a piece of paper, and use them as a reference for posing. This
method will work in the stage if you are using bones for the facial
deformations. If you are using deform tools I recommend sticking to the
detail editor and saving the seperate states, as the deform tool will
affect everything it covers in the stage (teeth too, for example) and
may not look quit right.

You should try to go through and set the keys up for gross body movement
first, you know, arms legs and such, then go back and shape the mouth on
the frames you need the speech. If you are following the bar sheet, or X
sheet, you can easily jump to the correct frame. I've tried animating
the speech first, then animating the body, but it is easier to go the
other way, as you will have fewer state bars to correct when
finished.(You may have to experience this to see what I'm talking about,
it's hard for me to describe.) If you do body first, your state bars
will cover larger areas, and you can update the frames you manipulate
the mouth on. If you go speech first, you have a lot of small bars to go
through, and the whole bodies geometry will have to be adjusted.

One more thing, you actually can use states from the detail editor and
animate with states in the stage, but you are limited to morphing
textures and such, the things that do not affect body geometry. I've
used states to make a characters eyes blink with Tyler Lund's tooneye
texture, while animating the body in the stage. you can see an example
of this at his website http://tlund.home.mindspring.com/Tindex.html
The rabbit in the animated gif on the texture page has states for eyes
blinking from the detail editor, and his face was animated in the stage.
Tooneye2 is another extremely useful texture , btw. Works for more than
cartoons.

Hope this helps,

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Date:         Tue, 26 May 1998 09:48:44 -0500
From:         Frank Gabriel <[e-mail]>

In limited animation for television, mouth shapes are listed as "ABC", or
"A through F" mouths. These are:

A=closed
B=slightly open
C=wider
D=Very wide
E=Oh
F=Ooh

I can email some examples from Disney's Winnie the Pooh to those
interested, since I can't remember my password to publish them on my web
site right now...

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Date:         Tue, 26 May 1998 23:22:16 +0200
From:         Stephane Van Israel <[e-mail]>

        Don't hesitate to send it to me, I've never enough to learn from.

Thanks a lot.

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Date:         Tue, 26 May 1998 13:44:53 -0500
From:         Frank Gabriel <[e-mail]>

You are correct when you suggest animating the body movement first, then
adding mouth shapes. That's the way it's done in traditional animation. We
work out the key poses, getting the timing & body language right, THEN add
dialog. This saves a lot of time (& pencil mileage in 2d animation).

Frank

At 08:27 PM 5/25/98 -0400, you wrote:

>
>You should try to go through and set the keys up for gross body movement
>first, you know, arms legs and such, then go back and shape the mouth on
>the frames you need the speech. If you are following the bar sheet, or X
>sheet, you can easily jump to the correct frame. I've tried animating
>the speech first, then animating the body, but it is easier to go the
>other way, as you will have fewer state bars to correct when
>finished.(You may have to experience this to see what I'm talking about,
>it's hard for me to describe.) If you do body first, your state bars
>will cover larger areas, and you can update the frames you manipulate
>the mouth on. If you go speech first, you have a lot of small bars to go
>through, and the whole bodies geometry will have to be adjusted.
>
>Hope this helps,
>
>Cory

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Date:         Tue, 26 May 1998 23:20:19 +0200
From:         Stephane Van Israel <[e-mail]>

>At 08:27 PM 5/25/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Yep, Magpie is indespensible. I think the original quest here had to do
>>may not look quit right.

As I wrote before I'm trying to make a dinosaur talk, it's a bit
complicated, but I used around 8 mouth shapes, plus different expressions
for the nose, the eyes, the lips, etc...

>>You should try to go through and set the keys up for gross body movement
>>through, and the whole bodies geometry will have to be adjusted.

Yes, another advantage of this method is that you can first make the actor
"talk with his body", I believe that it is one of the first thing students
learn at animation schools...(am I right Frank ?).

>>One more thing, you actually can use states from the detail editor and
>>Tooneye2 is another extremely useful texture , btw. Works for more than
>>cartoons.

Thanks a lot Cory, this will be added to my animation booklet !

My main problem here is that I created states for the talking dinosaur but
on a static body for tests, but (I didn't planned the anim properly) I was
in the impossibility to import those states on the on the states I did in
the stage editor, I thought I could apply states on a part of an object as
in the detail editor :(

I think this could easily be introduced in the next version of Imagine
(select in edit group mode an axis and apply a detail state on it).

I suppose that in your remarkable rabfac anim you did all the anim by
moving bones on the fly in the stage editor, it would have been easier to
able to import a library of states for different expressions .
Anyway, you did an excellent job !

(And it is urgent because I've got to finish that part of my demo reel for
the end of the week)

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Date:         Thu, 28 May 1998 18:11:28 +0100
From:         George Cole <[e-mail]>


I've been to Cory's site but I couldn't find one called 'rabfac'. Is it
available for download on the net?
Thanks,

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Date:         Fri, 29 May 1998 15:18:04 -0400
From:         Collins <[e-mail]>

Sorry George, I really need to update my pages...

Try these out--

http://www.accucomm.net/~collins1/rabbit.htm (some still shots)

avi files of rabbit-- http://www.accucomm.net/~collins1/rabbit.zip

Cory

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Date:         Wed, 27 May 1998 01:37:51 -0400
From:         Collins <[e-mail]>

Stephane,

Yep, I did them on the fly using the method, I described earlier. It
seems like it would be a lot of trouble, but after making the shapes a
few times it gets to be a quick and easy process. Go ahead and try it,
you 'll see. I also use headless bodies, animated in the stage, with
detail formed stated heads associated to the body, if there is a
neckline like a shirt, or something to hide the seam. But, this a really
big but, the parent axis of the body has to be the point to which you
are associating the head object. If not, you'll be chasing necks,
shoulders, eyeballs and teeth all over the place!!!! (Isn't that right,
Matthew?)

Thanks  to Frank for sharing the details, and clarifying on this method.
It works very well.

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